This post was updated 20 days ago and some of the ideas may be out of date

一、设计约束与条件

1. 项目特定条件

• 每个项目都面临独特的具体条件和约束

• 这些约束源自OULIPUS（潜在文学工作坊）的文学概念

• 设计师需要在约束中寻找创造性

二、工作方法论

1. 多元变体思维

• 不追求唯一最佳解决方案

• 寻求与现实相似的复杂度

• 在数百个约束条件下工作

2. 建筑传统的重要性

• 在既定限制内工作

• 保持对建筑传统的认知

• 将工作视为持续的叙事过程

三、设计表达方式

1. 平面图的价值

• 强调物质性而非图表性

• 平面图本身就是建构

• 包含度量概念和特定性

2. 反对简单化表达

• 避免过度形式化描述

• 反对将项目简化为表面特征

• 批评将设计简化为趣味性案例

四、设计思维方式

1. 构建思维方法

• 通过具体维度构建工作基础

• 持续转变和变化推动项目发展

• 寻找作品间的共同点

2. 关注项目外部

• 重视项目外部的影响因素

• 以阿利坎特优律体中心为例

• 强调环境因素的重要性

3. 理论参考

• 借鉴佩雷克和克诺的创作方法

• 从《风格练习》中学习讽刺性

• 结合福柯文本整理思路

以下为原文+翻译（设计标准化）

[with Enric Miralles] NOTES FROM AN INFORMAL CONVERSATION Barcelona, January 21, 2000 EMILIO TUÑÓN & LUIS MORENO MANSILLA

[与恩里克·米拉莱斯的对话] 非正式谈话记录 巴塞罗那，2000年1月21日 埃米利奥·图农和路易斯·莫雷诺·曼西利亚

At the end of January, we went to Barcelona to interview Enric Miralles and Benedetta Tagliabue. We spent the day in the tremor of their studio around a patio, with its continuous itineraries, and the evening slipped by in the 'circularity' of their home. With every chair different, they made one simply feel like something more.

一月底，我们前往巴塞罗那采访恩里克·米拉莱斯和贝内德塔·塔利亚布。我们在他们环绕庭院的工作室度过了白天，那里有着连续的动线，傍晚时分在他们家中的"循环"空间中度过。每把椅子都不尽相同，让人感受到不一样的意境。

Enric spoke of his projects with unbridled energy. On the basis of these notes, we agreed to prepare a second conversation and meet again at a later date. But time - that time which Enric did not like to think of from behind - unexpectedly took the lead and showed its dark back. The transcription of that informal conversation is left here, and we have been left reading the book he recommended to us: La vie mode d'emploi, in which, unlike in life, everything ends up fitting together.

恩里克以无限的热情谈论他的项目。基于这些笔记，我们约定准备第二次对话并再次相见。但时间——那个恩里克不愿从背后思考的时间——出乎意料地领先了一步，显露出它阴暗的一面。这次非正式对话的记录留在这里，而我们则留下阅读他推荐给我们的书：《生活使用指南》，与生活不同的是，书中的一切最终都完美契合。

"We can start by looking at the projects if you want, and I'll tell you what I find interesting about each one..."

"如果你愿意，我们可以开始看这些项目，我会告诉你每个项目中我觉得有趣的地方..."

"Yesterday you almost convinced us to arrive at Mollet Park with our eyes closed, then open them suddenly to see a dream - the dream of a nabob..."

"昨天你几乎说服我们闭着眼睛到达莫莱特公园，然后突然睁开眼睛看到一个梦——一个富豪的梦..."

"I think that in Mollet Park the whole project has been left outside. I mean, you can never get inside! The interesting thing is to mix it all up, even the arbitrary nature of the city in this area, in this place. That is why I think it is somewhat oneiric, dream-like, because you can never go in. Although it is true that it is organized and that people will understand it better when the trees have grown."

"我认为在莫莱特公园，整个项目都被留在外面。我的意思是，你永远无法进入！有趣的是把一切都混在一起，甚至包括这个区域、这个地方城市的任意性。这就是为什么我认为它有些梦幻般的感觉，因为你永远无法进入。虽然事实上它是有组织的，当树木长大后人们会更好地理解它。"

"Mollet contains something of a memory of the future, doesn't it? The state the town could return to in a few years, amongst the hills and only parts of houses left..."

"莫莱特包含着某种对未来的记忆，不是吗？几年后这个城镇可能会回到的状态，在山丘之间只剩下房屋的部分..."

There could be another reading of this very elementary project, which might be the ability to produce documents that specify the overlap of the different movements in a place, making the most of its ruins. Working in public spaces has probably had a big influence in that - seeing how, in the coexistence of architecture, project and society, there is a fundamental need to destroy. You are constantly developing the thinking of your work over a few traces, like in Santa Caterina and Diagonal Mar. You need to have a sort of document where time is condensed in this place. The easiest thing is to condense time, logically, by overlapping traces. But not in order to consider that your project is a step forward; not as if there was an underlying linear idea, but almost as if time - I like to think this way - instead of having it behind your back, you had it before you. On the Santa Caterina Market site, for example. How on earth could a monastery fit in there? Discovering these sorts of things that are more in your imagination is a sort of challenge to what you do, and it needs the same intensity as those other things. Nowadays, nobody would be capable of discovering the geometry needed to fit a convent in there. How could a convent have possibly fitted in there? And how is it possible that the first market was there? You have to count on that sort of overlap of things. The trick is always the same: try to place the same importance on the trace of the monastery as the trace of a moment when everything was destroyed, or the trace of the pathway that passed through the middle, as if all these things could have the same importance.

这个非常基础的项目还可以有另一种解读，那就是能够制作文件来说明一个地方不同运动的重叠，最大限度地利用其遗迹。在公共空间工作可能对此产生了重大影响——看到在建筑、项目和社会的共存中，存在着一种根本的破坏需求。你在圣卡特琳娜和对角线海滨等项目中不断发展你的工作思路。你需要有一种文件，在这个地方凝聚时间。最简单的方法就是通过重叠痕迹来凝聚时间。但不是为了认为你的项目是向前迈进了一步；不是好像有一个潜在的线性想法，而是几乎像是时间——我喜欢这样想——不是在你背后，而是在你面前。比如在圣卡特琳娜市场遗址。修道院怎么可能适合那里？发现这些更多存在于你想象中的事物是对你所做事情的一种挑战，它需要与其他事物相同的强度。如今，没有人能够发现使修道院适合那里所需的几何形态。修道院怎么可能适合那里？第一个市场又是怎么可能在那里的？你必须考虑到这种事物的重叠。诀窍始终相同：试图赋予修道院的痕迹与一切被摧毁时刻的痕迹，或者穿过中间的小径的痕迹同等的重要性，就好像所有这些事物都可以具有相同的重要性。

In the case of the Diagonal Mar Park, the project does not recover any of the existing traces because the town plan has made that physically impossible. One has to at least be aware that the train went along there, that at one point the tracks converged, that over there were some factories, that sort of thing... in the end, you are not just working with the physical reality of the moment, but with the physical reality of everything that has been there as well, that has built up the place. And from there we would get back to the measurements, to the things that are inhabitable. I realized that when we were working for a long time on projects that had to do with wharves - as in Bremerhaven, sthaven or Dresden - and on old exercises we used to do at the School of Architecture. And you realized that curiously, a wharf seems to be a flat place where you can do anything, but later you realize that is not the case. No way! The wharf is linked to the city by just one point, which cancels out any possibility of it ever becoming a city, and that its size is as simple as the size of a perimeter necessary for boats to tie up, and that its inner area measures exactly the size necessary to store all the goods arriving from a disgraced train - it leaves them there and backs out. And then there is no way of getting rid of all of that precision of usage that has given rise to certain dimensions. There is no way of inventing a reality beyond this one. The place has been marked. So what can we do? Maybe we can start to think from the other perspective, from the piles of containers, not because of an aesthetic problem, but because in the end reality is what has built it all up. In the project we designed for the Bremerhaven port area, for example, it was an important learning experience for me to realize that now the city is more of a river port. Because before, there were moments when you could see ships that were much bigger than houses, or there was a ship being repaired in dry dock, or under construction. All of that bygone activity is still present somehow, even though it has disappeared. And when you get inside the physical reality of the whole thing, you can't forget it. There is never a clean slate! It's something we always come across in our work: starting a project not from a specific problem but through a series of variations; discovering the past as a series of variations... Chemnitz, Leipzig... In all of those proposals for sports stadiums, the fundamental issue is to work out structural solutions which, as you can see, are all the same, not for us but for all of them.

在对角线海滨公园的案例中，由于城市规划使其在物理上变得不可能，项目并没有恢复任何现有的痕迹。但至少要意识到火车曾经从那里经过，在某个时点轨道汇聚，那里曾有一些工厂，诸如此类...最终，你不仅仅是在处理当下的物理现实，还要处理曾经存在于那里的一切的物理现实，这些都构建了这个地方。从那里我们回到尺度，回到那些可居住的事物。当我们长期从事与码头有关的项目时，我意识到了这一点——比如在不来梅港、斯特港或德累斯顿——以及我们在建筑学院做的老练习。你会意识到一个有趣的现象，码头看起来像是一个可以做任何事情的平地，但后来你发现事实并非如此。绝对不是！码头仅通过一个点与城市相连，这取消了它成为城市的任何可能性，它的尺寸就像是船只停泊所需的周长那么简单，而它的内部面积恰好是存储从一列失意的火车到来的所有货物所需的尺寸——它把货物留在那里然后倒退离开。然后就无法摆脱所有这些使用精确性带来的某些尺寸。无法发明超越这个现实的现实。这个地方已经被标记了。那么我们能做什么？也许我们可以从另一个角度开始思考，从集装箱堆开始，不是因为美学问题，而是因为最终现实就是构建了这一切。例如，在我们为不来梅港区设计的项目中，对我来说一个重要的学习经验是意识到现在这个城市更像是一个河港。因为以前，你可以看到比房子还大的船只，或者有船只在干船坞中维修，或者在建造中。所有那些逝去的活动somehow仍然存在，尽管它们已经消失了。当你进入整个事物的物理现实时，你无法忘记它。从来没有一个干净的石板！这是我们在工作中总是遇到的事情：不是从一个具体问题开始项目，而是通过一系列变化；发现过去是一系列变化...开姆尼茨，莱比锡...在所有这些体育场馆的提案中，根本问题是制定结构解决方案，正如你所看到的，它们都是一样的，不是为我们，而是为所有人。

"The material you work with is people. Canetti, in a quote that I have always borne in mind, when he speaks of Nazi architecture and that sort of thing, says that the Nazis knew best how to build these sorts of spaces in continuous movement, spaces that fill up and empty, and he cites the example of the beach. He says that the best public space is the beach because of its capacity to constantly fill up and empty."

"你工作的材料是人。卡内蒂在谈到纳粹建筑等类似事物时有一段我一直记在心里的话，他说纳粹最懂得如何建造这种持续运动的空间，这种填满和清空的空间，他举了海滩作为例子。他说最好的公共空间是海滩，因为它有能力不断地填满和清空。"

There is something funny and structurally interesting about the Leipzig Sports Hall, which arose from the Seele Factory. Normally, you either use huge girders or nothing else, hence the product of English technology: to build upwards using the structure, and then resist from above with cables.

莱比锡体育馆有一些有趣且在结构上引人注目的地方，它源于塞勒工厂。通常情况下，你要么使用巨大的梁架，要么什么都不用，因此有了英国技术的产物：使用结构向上建造，然后用钢缆从上方抵抗。

Well, our proposal was to produce a sort of ring that could resist torsion and at the same time shift the forces out to the perimeter so the structure which is normally left up on top disappears. That is the principle of the Leipzig project: trying to produce a great central ring that lets the whole unit resist. And from there we would go back to that encompassed piece or figure that is in many of our projects. Really, when there are a lot of people, like in these projects, the working material is the people themselves... Hence the reason for those little sketches that start off Chemnitz, where there is an analogy between the movement of people and hairstyle because when you see a hairstyle, you ask, 'How can they do that?'. And really, it's the same as combing your hair: half over this side and half on the other. And really, you organize people that way too. A comb is very good for organizing people. It's like ploughing fields. What happens is that in this case, when there are enough people, you separate them and merge them the way you would with any liquid - people are your working material.

我们的方案是制作一种能够抵抗扭转的环，同时将力量转移到周边，这样通常留在顶部的结构就消失了。这就是莱比锡项目的原则：试图制造一个让整体单元都能抵抗的大型中心环。从那里，我们回到了在我们许多项目中都有的那种包围式的构件或形态。实际上，当有很多人时，比如在这些项目中，工作材料就是人本身...这就是为什么在开姆尼茨项目的那些小草图中，人群的移动和发型之间存在类比，因为当你看到一个发型时，你会问，'他们是怎么做到的？'。事实上，这就像梳头发：一半在这边，一半在那边。而且，你也是这样组织人群的。梳子对组织人群很有用。这就像耕种田地。当有足够多的人时，你就像处理液体一样分离和合并他们 - 人就是你的工作材料。

Let's speak about the anthropomorphism that sometimes appears in your pieces. One of the drawings that I am just beginning to understand after many years is an architectural sketch that has always fascinated me. It's a little drawing by Francesco di Giorgio of a man inside a cross on a church floor plan. It's incredible! A pure manifesto, don't you think? This mystery of why ultimately, the human figure always underlies architecture...

让我们谈谈有时出现在你作品中的拟人化。多年后我才开始理解的一幅图纸是一张一直让我着迷的建筑草图。那是弗朗切斯科·迪·乔治奥画的一个教堂平面图中的十字架里的人。太不可思议了！这是一个纯粹的宣言，你不觉得吗？为什么人体形态最终总是构成建筑的基础，这真是个谜...

Your architecture contains something of clothing, of cloth... Well, that is especially clear in the Copenhagen Theatre. We even clad the pillars with Miyake dresses. In fact what interests me most about buildings is that when you see them and you start to get to know them better, you realize that they have had many other forms before, not radically, but definitely since their change of use. Any construction that has been capable of surviving the passage of time is by definition an ongoing transformation. That is why in the Edinburgh Parliament project we are interested in that sort of quiver while you are working on it, which enables it to be irrelevant later whether the users are nationalists or not, whether they are offices for banks or parliamentarians, I don't know... At least at the start of my projects, I like to see that type of playing at being many things.

你的建筑包含着某种服装、布料的元素...这一点在哥本哈根剧院特别明显。我们甚至用三宅一生的服装来包裹柱子。事实上，关于建筑最让我感兴趣的是，当你看到它们并开始更好地了解它们时，你会意识到它们之前有过许多其他形态，虽然不是彻底的改变，但随着用途的改变确实发生了变化。任何能够经受时间考验的建筑，从定义上来说都是一个持续的转变过程。这就是为什么在爱丁堡议会项目中，我们对那种在工作时的颤动感兴趣，这使得后来使用者是民族主义者还是银行职员或议员都变得无关紧要，我不知道...至少在我的项目开始时，我喜欢看到这种扮演多重角色的可能性。

Another figure that perhaps helps to understand our work is one that we often repeat - the one of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Have you seen the sketches for the Thessalonika Pier? Conceptually, the project consists of giving birth to this sort of island, because obviously that double identity exists there. On the one hand you can best explain the Thessalonika project by not wanting to build a pier because it would ruin the beach. And as you move forward, your intuition tells you that you could go for those three islands, which could be prefabricated. But you also realize that opposite you have Mount Olympus, that there is a whole type of city, and that there are older traces from other periods, even from the Bronze Age... Moving like that through time and discovering things. It's a real blast when you realize the capacity that one thing has to link up with itself and, without ceasing to do so, be other things as well... In Thessalonika, we found ourselves, somewhat surprisingly, moving amongst things that resembled bulls' horns - which is also a Corbusian figure -, the movement of the water, the birth of those figures inside... On these plans for Thessalonika, you can see that the idea was to build prefabs and set them in place. Now it is a vacant, uninteresting field. Leaving some ruins of the construction as a sort of initial occupation could be parallel to Mollet, and also to Kolonihaven...

另一个也许有助于理解我们工作的形象是我们经常重复的一个 - 杰基尔博士和海德先生。你看过塞萨洛尼基码头的草图吗？从概念上讲，这个项目就是要创造出这样一个岛屿，因为显然那里存在着双重身份。一方面，你可以这样解释塞萨洛尼基项目：不想建造码头是因为会破坏海滩。当你往前推进时，你的直觉告诉你可以建造那三个可以预制的岛屿。但你也意识到对面是奥林匹斯山，那里有一整座城市，还有来自其他时期的古老痕迹，甚至可以追溯到青铜时代...就这样穿越时间发现事物。当你意识到一件事物有能力与自身联系，同时又不失去成为其他事物的可能性时，那真是令人兴奋...在塞萨洛尼基，我们惊讶地发现自己在类似公牛角的事物中移动 - 这也是柯布西耶式的形象 - 水的运动，那些内部形象的诞生...在塞萨洛尼基的这些计划中，你可以看到想法是建造预制件并将它们放置到位。现在它是一片空旷、无趣的场地。将一些建筑遗迹作为初始占据的方式，这可以与莫莱特项目相呼应，也可以与科隆尼哈文项目相呼应...

Kolonihaven is a place for children to sit in... They are part of the German tradition - the cabins that people erect in market gardens on the outskirts of towns. Kolonihaven has two things, both of which are important... the first one we thought of was a place-to-gather-up-the-passage-of-time. One of those farmer's almanacs where the days of the year are like a series of drawers. They are places that are closely related to the personal passage of time. That was the first idea. Then we found a little sketch by Corbu: one of a house with a child and her father when the years go by. And that is one of the key points of the passage of time. So what we did was almost to play around the house, which is almost a dress which lets you bring together some of the movements of an elderly person and also those of a child, but which is also place where the father could not enter. These two projects - Thessalonika and Kolonihaven - are like the manifestation of an ambition, when actually there was no such need... And on the other hand, the National Library of Japan project is the one that is best described in the sense of a formal image. It is an extremely complex project in which you feel more at ease working like Dr. Jekyll, in parallel...

科隆尼哈文是一个供儿童坐的地方...它们是德国传统的一部分 - 人们在城镇郊区的市场花园里搭建的小屋。科隆尼哈文有两个重要的特点...我们想到的第一个是一个收集时间流逝的地方。就像那些农民年历，一年中的日子就像一系列抽屉。这些地方与个人时间的流逝密切相关。这是第一个想法。然后我们发现了柯布西耶的一个小草图：一个随着岁月流逝的房子，里面有一个孩子和她的父亲。这是时间流逝的关键点之一。所以我们做的几乎是在房子周围玩耍，这房子几乎就像一件衣服，让你能够将老年人和孩子的一些动作结合起来，但同时也是父亲无法进入的地方。这两个项目 - 塞萨洛尼基和科隆尼哈文 - 就像是一种野心的体现，尽管实际上并没有这样的需求...另一方面，日本国家图书馆项目是最能从正式形象角度描述的项目。这是一个极其复杂的项目，在其中你会感觉更容易像杰基尔博士一样并行工作...

The Kolonihaven model is made of soap. It looks nice, because in time soap gets worn down by hands, it starts taking the shape of its user's hands. The next model already includes lines. What is there in between? It is not just a matter of formal or sculptural investigation. We finally thought we would do it in wood, and you build wood with frames... We cannot see why a constraint is good when it is burdened by a capacity for introspection. In fact, we only resort to introspection when we do not know what we are looking at because we have just changed its place... Changing place, yes; living off a loan. Benedetta discovered our house and the office, and for me it truly was another chance to appreciate the idea of living off a loan, of moving into a house like putting on second-hand clothes, where the most interesting thing is what you discover. I spend my life there, inside the house.

科隆尼哈文的模型是用肥皂制作的。它看起来很漂亮，因为随着时间的推移，肥皂被手磨损，开始呈现出使用者手的形状。下一个模型已经包含了线条。中间发生了什么？这不仅仅是形式或雕塑研究的问题。我们最终决定用木头来做，而木头是用框架来建造的...当一个约束被自省能力所累时，我们看不出它有什么好处。事实上，只有当我们不知道自己在看什么时，因为我们刚刚改变了它的位置，我们才会求助于自省...是的，改变位置；靠借贷生活。贝内德塔发现了我们的房子和办公室，对我来说，这确实是另一个机会来体会借贷生活的理念，搬进一个房子就像穿上二手衣服，最有趣的是你所发现的东西。我在那里度过我的生活，在房子里面。

I think it is important for your house to have a similar intensity to the way you live. So you can ask yourself, "What is this? Modern or antique?"

我认为你的房子应该具有与你生活方式相似的强度。所以你可以问自己："这是什么？现代的还是古董？"

Focusing one's gaze on a different point every time. That has a lot to do with your architecture... It is like a collage.... Sometimes it seems to be an overlap of different things... but actually you are looking at one or the other... It is also related to what we discussed about opening up possibilities, with the way of looking at a collage... There is a set of diverse but interrelated things. And your gaze focuses on just one thing, which sends back a signal... Like Hockney's Polaroid portraits..

每次将目光聚焦在不同的点上。这与你的建筑有很大关系...它就像一幅拼贴画....有时它似乎是不同事物的重叠...但实际上你是在看这个或那个...这也与我们讨论的开放可能性有关，就像看待拼贴画的方式...有一组多样但相互关联的事物。而你的目光聚焦在某一个事物上，它会发回一个信号...就像霍克尼的宝丽来肖像..

I have never said this before, but you might have realized it anyway: the ground plan sketches for Mollet Park are copied from Hockney! A spitting image! Also by accepting what people said: You produce collages like Hockney's. Well, in that case, let's do it!

我以前从未说过这个，但你可能已经意识到了：莫莱特公园的平面草图是从霍克尼那里复制的！简直一模一样！也是接受了人们说的：你制作的拼贴画像霍克尼的。好吧，既然这样，那就这么做吧！

Actually it is a way of looking at things. In your architecture, the nice thing is that your gaze can rest on something... be entertained...

实际上这是一种看待事物的方式。在你的建筑中，美好的地方在于你的目光可以停留在某物上...得到娱乐...

For me, entertaining yourself, not being bored, is fundamental. And the first person that must not be bored is me!

对我来说，让自己得到娱乐，不感到无聊，是根本。而第一个不能感到无聊的人就是我！

Not because it is decorative architecture - nothing to do with that. No, it must have the capacity to take in the gaze and not return it intact, like Asplund's maze at the foot of the family bench in the Stockholm cemetery.

这不是因为它是装饰性建筑 - 与那无关。不，它必须具有接受目光并且不完整返回的能力，就像阿斯普伦德在斯德哥尔摩公墓家族长椅脚下的迷宫。

I have often explained that one in class. And the thing is that you know before it happens, you know that somebody is going to enter, that they will be crying and that they are going to sit down there. They will be thinking about their mother, they will be sad, and all of a sudden... They will have forgotten all about it!... It's amazing! And then that little bench for you to sit down alongside the spirit that has just died... That bench is tremendous, because you lift your gaze and you see a place that is staging the absence of a person. Because nobody sits there, not even as a joke! I am incredibly interested in that narrative sense of things.

我经常在课堂上解释这个。重点是你在事情发生之前就知道，你知道有人会进来，他们会哭泣，他们会坐在那里。他们会想着他们的母亲，他们会很悲伤，突然间...他们会忘记一切！...太神奇了！然后是那个小长椅，让你可以坐在刚刚逝去的灵魂旁边...那个长椅太不可思议了，因为当你抬起目光，你会看到一个展现人之缺席的地方。因为没有人坐在那里，即使开玩笑也不会！我对事物的这种叙事感特别感兴趣。

This studio we are in has something in common with your house: you can go round, there are spirals, with an escape...

我们所在的这个工作室与你的房子有共同之处：你可以绕行，有螺旋，有出口...

Yes, until you manage to 'find' someone. You look for a specific place that is there; it is an exercise I enjoy doing. You take a project, Hostalets for example, and you see that here there is a ramp going up, and that is where you arrive, and there are three pieces. But obviously, what would be best? The best thing would be to pick up Hostalets and take it with you somewhere else. So then you put it down and the others have to begin. I think that is the fun part!... And now we have started to do it, in the sense of having a project for a very, very precise location - which is to say that that form embodies the dimension, the desire for connection, etc. and you take it somewhere else and they start to work...

是的，直到你设法"找到"某人。你寻找那里的一个特定地方；这是我喜欢做的练习。你拿一个项目，比如霍斯塔莱茨，你看到这里有一个向上的坡道，那就是你到达的地方，有三个部分。但显然，什么是最好的？最好的是把霍斯塔莱茨带到别的地方去。然后你把它放下，其他人必须开始。我认为这是有趣的部分！...现在我们已经开始这样做了，就是说有一个非常非常精确位置的项目 - 也就是说那个形式体现了尺寸、连接的渴望等等，然后你把它带到别处，他们开始工作...

A couple of years ago we heard you say that you designed your projects as if they were somewhere else...

几年前我们听你说你设计项目时就好像它们在别处...

Of course! The important thing is for the context to exist... In the House in Mercaders and in the office you see the lines which you can use afterwards to work the areas that end up in the Borneo Houses... The facade there is absolutely quinqui (improvised)! I mean, they have the room, the window, the patio.... but the facades describe... the floor plan! You get the plan, and when you superimpose the two things you get this facade...

当然！重要的是要有上下文...在梅尔卡德斯的房子和办公室里，你看到可以后来用来处理最终出现在婆罗洲房屋中的区域的线条...那里的立面是完全即兴的！我的意思是，他们有房间、窗户、庭院....但立面描述了...平面图！你得到平面图，当你叠加这两样东西时，你就得到这个立面...

They are traces, as if one could suddenly see the reverse side of something, but at the same time it is a constraint that once again opens up more possibilities, your degrees of freedom. Given that the lines are fixed, to some extent artificially given, as if someone else had set them, then the job is absolutely free in color....

它们是痕迹，就好像人们突然能看到某物的反面，但同时它又是一个约束，再次开启了更多可能性，你的自由度。考虑到线条是固定的，在某种程度上是人为给定的，就好像是别人设定的，那么在色彩上的工作就完全自由了....

Deciding to work with color is a bit aggressive, but in the fun sense. I mean, the constraint used by Dutch architecture to be radical is: one color, uniform brickwork, etc. Dutch architecture has a hard aesthetics and so with color, I wanted our project there to stand out like Dr. Jekyll.

决定使用色彩有点激进，但是从有趣的角度来说。我的意思是，荷兰建筑用来做激进的约束是：单一色彩、统一砖work等。荷兰建筑有一种硬朗的美学，所以在色彩上，我想让我们的项目在那里像杰基尔博士一样突出。

Ideally, houses should be big, but if they can't be, they should at least be long, with an interior space to store things. For me, one of the most impressive experiences in terms of understanding Corbu a little better (it's impossible to understand him) is to understand the thing about him being commissioned to do a house and he produces Unité. They commission another one, and he repeats it, they commission another one and he does it again. I think he produced six in all. It's the least architectural thing in the world, don't you think? It really is impressive what he says about the solar day... And of course you realize how important the imposition of the radical north aspect is in this project. In the morning, the sun comes in here and in the afternoon it's over there. That is how the idea of the long Borneo Island houses arose, where what we tried to do was to subvert the scheme.

理想情况下，房子应该大，但如果不能大，至少应该长，有存放物品的内部空间。对我来说，在更好地理解柯布西耶方面（理解他是不可能的），最令人印象深刻的经历之一是理解这件事：当他被委托设计一座房子时，他造出了单元住宅。他们又委托一个，他重复了，他们又委托一个，他又做了一遍。我想他一共做了六个。这是世界上最不建筑的事情，你不觉得吗？他关于太阳日的说法真的很令人印象深刻...当然你也意识到在这个项目中彻底的北向面有多重要。早上，阳光从这里进来，下午就在那边。这就是长婆罗洲岛屋的想法产生的原因，我们试图颠覆这个方案。

This studio around a patio is fantastic. You go out through one door, walk through the whole studio and return to the same room through the opposite door. The model workshop...

这个围绕庭院的工作室太棒了。你从一扇门出去，穿过整个工作室，从对面的门回到同一个房间。模型工作室...

We used to develop our projects almost exclusively in sketches, or mostly in sketches. With Kolonihaven it began to take on a different slant. Here the model is reality, a construction. But in the studio, the models are primarily tools for communication between us. In other words, not so much formal research, but a way for fifteen people working on a project to be on the same level: they see it, they understand it and they are familiar with it..

我们过去几乎完全用草图开发我们的项目，或者主要用草图。从科隆尼哈文开始，它开始有了不同的倾向。这里的模型是现实，是一个建构。但在工作室里，模型主要是我们之间的交流工具。换句话说，不是那么多正式的研究，而是让十五个在项目上工作的人处于同一水平的方式：他们看到它，理解它，并且熟悉它..

There is always a correspondence between different tasks - almost an invisible correspondence. 在不同任务之间总是存在着联系 - 几乎是一种无形的联系。

Exactly. That is why projects end up reminding you of things that you have worked on at other times. The Maretas Museum contains a lot of the Thessaloniki project. Obviously the place is different, the situation is different, the contents are different, but it is a project that is out there alone, waiting for you to come back to it. 确实如此。这就是为什么项目最终会让你想起你在其他时候做过的事情。马雷塔斯博物馆包含了很多塞萨洛尼基项目的元素。显然，地点不同，情况不同，内容不同，但它是一个独立存在的项目，等待着你回来。

The Orenstadt Archives are somewhat similar. That is where the buildings started to store things vertically. 奥伦施塔特档案馆也有些相似。那里是建筑开始垂直储存物品的地方。

Storage. That is also part of the explanation for the new Natural Gas Company headquarters. Not considering tall buildings as a sort of formal a priorism, but seeing them, for reasons of density, as something where you have to store things. The Gas tower is the result of taking in the building alongside, raising them and putting others on top. A bit like the tall buildings of the 1920's, where different things were stored, rather than putting your trust in stylism or the iconic question which is sometimes hard to escape from. It is a question of explaining how things are stored, how you get in, how you move things, how you get out. It is something we also started to do ourselves in other projects. 储存。这也是新天然气公司总部的部分解释。不是将高层建筑视为一种形式先验，而是出于密度的原因，将其视为必须储存东西的地方。燃气塔是将周边建筑纳入、提升并在顶部增加其他建筑的结果。有点像20世纪20年代的高层建筑，储存着不同的东西，而不是相信风格主义或有时难以摆脱的标志性问题。这是关于解释如何储存东西、如何进入、如何移动物品、如何离开的问题。这也是我们在其他项目中开始做的事情。

Utrecht. The Town Hall is an interesting project. The town block is right beside the city's most important canal, and on the other side there is another very important canal that borders the block. There used to be a series of those typical deep Dutch houses from different periods that enclosed the site. And with the passage of time, the most important one, which had a courtyard, merged with two or three of its neighbors and became the Town Hall. Later on the others were added on. Later still there was a neoclassical architect who, with not much ability in my opinion, constructed the central courtyard, inventing a symmetrical facade whose axes did not correspond to the courtyard, which is the least classical thing in the world. 乌特勒支。市政厅是一个有趣的项目。城市街区就在城市最重要的运河旁边，另一边是另一条非常重要的运河环绕着这个街区。以前有一系列来自不同时期的典型荷兰深宅围绕着这个地点。随着时间推移，最重要的一栋带庭院的房子与其邻近的两三栋合并成为市政厅。后来其他建筑也被加入。再后来，一位新古典主义建筑师（在我看来能力不太强）建造了中央庭院，设计了一个对称立面，其轴线与庭院不相对应，这是世界上最不古典的事情。

But that gave him a symmetrical axis to construct the building. And then in a terrible way but with absolute clarity, this invention enabled the units at the rear to be demolished, leaving a building that could be clearly identified with a Town Hall. Later on, a second operation at the start of this century, which you start to understand as time passes, tore down the rear part and, leaving a small 18th century house, constructed a building in a classic, post-war style. When you move around it has the ability to turn into a more Dutch style of building, which serves as a counterpoint between the buildings - it transforms the whole piece. 但这给了他一个建造建筑的对称轴。然后以一种糟糕但绝对清晰的方式，这个发明使后面的单元能够被拆除，留下一个可以清楚识别为市政厅的建筑。后来，在本世纪初的第二次改造中，随着时间推移你开始理解，拆除了后部，保留了一座18世纪的小房子，建造了一座经典的战后风格建筑。当你在周围移动时，它能够转变成更多的荷兰风格建筑，在建筑之间形成对比 - 它改变了整个作品。

Our proposal was very simple: in the light of all the doubts that arose, the difficulty of everything, we tried to keep up the rhythm, to maintain enough energy to rediscover that rhythm inside. And that is our competition proposal - going back to the character of those little houses. And from there we began to work like crazy. Our idea was to change the nature of this building, leave the Council chambers with skylights for light to enter from above and below. 我们的提案很简单：面对所有产生的疑虑和一切的困难，我们试图保持节奏，保持足够的能量在内部重新发现那种节奏。这就是我们的竞赛提案 - 回到那些小房子的特色。从那里开始我们疯狂地工作。我们的想法是改变这座建筑的性质，为议会厅设置天窗，让光线从上下进入。

Those things are both abstract and material - they can't be independent. 这些事物既抽象又物质 - 它们不能独立存在。

Of course you have to ensure that the sections of each one of these houses is different. And obviously you have to be able to move through them, and the project managers hear you say such things without wanting to understand... A very hard project where you have to burn up all your energy trying to give strength to the things, trying to make them swivel on themselves. 当然你必须确保这些房子的每个部分都不同。显然你必须能够在其中移动，而项目经理听你说这些话却不想理解...这是一个非常困难的项目，你必须耗尽所有精力试图给事物力量，试图让它们自转。

It is not just a problem of communication... it is also a problem of the way that you experience the building... what lies behind things... 这不仅仅是沟通的问题...也是你如何体验建筑的问题...事物背后的含义...

It is just a communication problem; there has never been any understanding; a pity... In the end we reached a decision on the stairs which might not be so bad, which was to insist on that neoclassical character of the building, bringing out some parts like a balcony - a place where somebody can address the public when they win a football match, a sort of stair-room to climb up to the piano nobile. Because, where have you ever seen a neoclassical building without even a staircase? We won the competition with a single, very simple sentence. We said, 'We are going to put each room in its corresponding place: the Mayor's room will be here, the deputy mayor's here, for the most important room, we will merge these four.' It is such a heavily committed building, in the centre of the city. 这只是一个沟通问题；从来没有任何理解；很遗憾...最后我们对楼梯做出的决定可能不太糟，就是坚持建筑的新古典主义特色，突出一些部分比如阳台 - 一个当有人赢得足球比赛时可以对公众讲话的地方，一种通往贵族层的楼梯室。因为，你在哪里见过没有楼梯的新古典主义建筑？我们用一句非常简单的话赢得了竞赛。我们说，'我们要把每个房间放在相应的位置：市长的房间在这里，副市长的在这里，对于最重要的房间，我们将合并这四个。'这是一座位于城市中心的重要建筑。

It is something so detailed, where you have to produce a passageway that traverses it all, while at the same time respecting the individuality of every house. Actually there was no client. That is why the subsequent projects try to tackle things much more directly, because work on historical buildings always has to go through a stage of comprehension and care. But it is turning out well in the end, because the variations have been produced, in this case by reduction. I would like to think that it has retained a lot of the richness that was generated by the work process itself... 这是一个非常详细的项目，你必须创造一个贯穿所有的通道，同时尊重每座房子的个性。实际上没有客户。这就是为什么后续项目试图更直接地处理问题，因为对历史建筑的工作总是要经过理解和关怀的阶段。但最终结果很好，因为变化是通过简化产生的。我希望它保留了工作过程本身产生的大量丰富性...

The Palafolls Library has changed a lot since the competition... it started out as two things and now it is just one... 帕拉福尔斯图书馆自竞赛以来发生了很大变化...它最初是两个东西，现在只是一个...

In the competition it was something that swiveled... Which takes us back to instruments, to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And in this project, for example, you realize that you have to take a radical turn. In Palafolls we produced a lot of models because the builder had few resources and we wanted to explain it to him well. Models are instruments for communication. It happens to me a lot with students. I am interested in knowing what other people have in their minds.

在竞赛中它是一个可旋转的东西...这让我们想到了乐器，想到了杰基尔博士和海德先生。在这个项目中，你意识到必须做出一个根本性的转变。在帕拉福尔斯，我们制作了很多模型，因为建筑商资源有限，我们想要向他解释清楚。模型是交流的工具。这种情况在我与学生交流时经常发生。我对了解其他人的想法很感兴趣。

Damge House. A fence with enormous flowers. Damge House is for a person who understands very well what it means to live in a place. He encouraged us to transform the house in a way that is not seen as such, but rather as a metamorphosis. It is very important for the task group to understand that there has to be a degree of generosity and that sort of thing. Of course you also build models to understand that things can't be like that.

达姆格住宅。一个有巨大花朵的围栏。达姆格住宅是为一个非常了解居住意义的人设计的。他鼓励我们以一种不被视为房子而是蜕变的方式来改造房子。对于工作组来说，理解需要有一定程度的慷慨和类似的想法很重要。当然，你也要通过建造模型来理解事物不能是那样的。

Here in Damge House, there is a point of exaggeration, but there is also a point of logic. I, for example, do not say no to that, because I know that there have been architects who have known how to do it before. Things are like puzzles that fall into place... Like Totem. We were commissioned to produce a piece to commemorate the anniversary of Domus, and we told them, "We will speak about time; then we'll see how we do it". And they answered, "Brilliant!" Because the sponsor is a watch manufacturer! Everything slots in together...

在达姆格住宅中，有一点夸张，但也有一点逻辑。例如，我不会对此说不，因为我知道以前有建筑师知道如何做到这一点。事物就像拼图一样自然契合...就像图腾。我们受委托制作一件作品来纪念Domus的周年纪念，我们告诉他们，"我们将谈论时间；然后我们再看看如何实现。"他们回答说，"太棒了！"因为赞助商是一家手表制造商！一切都完美吻合...

The Laban Institute Dance School and the Hamburg School of Music arise from trees... Hamburg is in some senses a classic project. It is a beautiful city! It was shortly before Laban. With Laban they didn't understand us. The thing is, it is a canal, one of those industrial places that are a mess but have the charm of Richardson's films. Basically what we proposed to them was that to construct their building, we first needed a large tree plantation, and the thing is that we already had some experience from the Hamburg project.

拉班舞蹈学院和汉堡音乐学院源于树木...汉堡在某种意义上是一个经典项目。这是一座美丽的城市！这是在拉班项目之前不久。在拉班项目中他们不理解我们。问题是，那里有一条运河，是那种杂乱但具有理查森电影魅力的工业区。基本上，我们向他们提出的建议是，要建造他们的建筑，我们首先需要一个大型树木种植园，而且我们已经从汉堡项目中获得了一些经验。

Because the nice thing about Hamburg is that close to the site, there is a church that is not very big but quite tall, and later, somebody with a lot of sense brought their own very low brick building up close. And it was up to us to lay the third piece. Time has gradually inserted this space as if it were in a forest. So we took the idea directly from Kahn: "A school is when children congregate around a tree, etc." And so we took a couple of trees in order to start from materiality and density.

因为汉堡的好处在于，靠近场地有一座不是很大但相当高的教堂，后来，一个很有见识的人在附近建造了他们自己的低矮砖房。轮到我们放置第三个部分。时间逐渐使这个空间融入，仿佛置身于森林中。所以我们直接采用了卡恩的想法："学校是当孩子们聚集在树下时形成的，等等。"因此我们选择了几棵树，从物质性和密度开始。

Seeing that with Laban there was no way of finding a similar density to the Hamburg project, we had to begin and seek; in other words, we had to invent the ideal situation for a school, something which in 15 years was not going to happen. So they did not understand that we had to construct something like a building that is added on to a series of trees before we start work. The two projects, Hamburg and Laban, were almost born at the same time. We have sometimes done it with the topography or other things - preparing the basic conditions for something to work reasonably well. And I would say that Hamburg is a totally blind project: you move forward with all the contradictions that you might encounter during the process. They were projects that we produced at the same time as Utrecht, with all their communication problems. This was where we learned to judge that what you really understand by architecture is actually something that is scarcely part of your conversation.

看到拉班项目无法找到与汉堡项目类似的密度，我们不得不重新开始寻找；换句话说，我们必须为学校创造理想的情况，这是15年内不可能发生的事情。所以他们不理解我们必须在开始工作之前建造一个像是依附在一系列树木上的建筑。汉堡和拉班这两个项目几乎同时诞生。我们有时会用地形或其他东西来做这件事 - 为某些事物能够合理运作准备基本条件。我要说汉堡是一个完全盲目的项目：你带着在过程中可能遇到的所有矛盾向前推进。这些是我们与乌得勒支同时进行的项目，都存在沟通问题。在这里我们学会了判断，你对建筑的真正理解实际上很少能在谈话中表达出来。

Hamburg is like a music score. We were together in the Frankfurt Städelschule when you won the competition... That's right! It has been enriched by its contradictions, but looking back, there is no way it could be anything else! I am deeply interested in those things related to recollection. The Venice Cemetery was essentially a game of ludo. Because in this project there was an underlying contradiction which is that if the city is not growing, why should the cemetery? Inside the cemetery it is insane. OK, from a distance, with the mist, it's nice, but not inside. They have kept on digging and digging for years in order to keep burying. And I said to them, "What you have to do here is play a game of ludo," and that is why we played with Max Bill's figure, which always closes in on itself. And when you have finished, the chapel will be produced, and then from here, you take a leap, you know? And you take a leap to get nowhere. It is a beautiful project because of that recollection you have of a classical place, your imagination of death. Although it irked me that people began to regard us as cemetery specialists, which I did not enjoy a bit - not in the least. Absolutely not! We had better change the subject.

汉堡就像一首乐谱。当你赢得比赛时，我们都在法兰克福艺术学院...没错！它因其矛盾而丰富，但回过头来看，它不可能是其他样子！我对那些与回忆有关的事物深感兴趣。威尼斯公墓本质上是一场飞行棋游戏。因为这个项目中有一个潜在的矛盾，如果城市不在增长，为什么公墓要增长？公墓内部是疯狂的。好吧，从远处看，在雾中，它很漂亮，但内部不是。他们多年来一直在挖掘以继续埋葬。我对他们说，"你们在这里要做的是玩一场飞行棋，"这就是为什么我们使用了马克斯·比尔的图形，它总是自我封闭。当你完成时，教堂就会产生，然后从这里，你要跳跃，你知道吗？你跳向虚无。这是一个美丽的项目，因为你对古典场所的回忆，你对死亡的想象。虽然人们开始把我们视为公墓专家让我很恼火，我一点也不喜欢 - 一点也不。绝对不是！我们最好换个话题。

Our latest projects, Queen Sofia, Vigo, Vence, have the degree of freedom we achieved in other projects such as Utrecht by removing ourselves, by trying to fulfill things better, because we wanted to be more aware. The interpretation of history in the Queen Sofia Art Centre competition, for example, is much more fun and more interesting than Utrecht. We thought, "Let's see, let's leave this space here where the church was, and we'll let the building poke its nose out so Antonio Lopez can paint it!" The Queen Sofia competition had a serious idea: in a modern cultural centre, the library, the conference room and the exhibition area all have to be the same! The artists have to decide where they want to exhibit... I thought that was a serious idea.

我们最新的项目，索菲娅王后、维戈、旺斯，具有我们在乌得勒支等其他项目中通过抽离自我、试图更好地完成事情而获得的自由度，因为我们想要更加清醒。例如，在索菲娅王后艺术中心竞赛中对历史的诠释比乌得勒支更有趣味性和吸引力。我们想，"让我们看看，把教堂原来的空间留在这里，让建筑探出头来，这样安东尼奥·洛佩兹就可以画它！"索菲娅王后竞赛有一个严肃的想法：在现代文化中心，图书馆、会议室和展览区都必须是一样的！艺术家们必须决定他们想在哪里展出...我认为这是一个严肃的想法。

It is curious to think that the greatest degree of freedom arises when there are the largest number of conditions, and if that were not the case, they would have to be invented...

有趣的是，当存在最多限制条件时反而产生了最大的自由度，如果不是这样，就必须创造这些条件...

Every project always encounters a series of specific conditions. The specifics of each situation. However, designing is an ongoing task. In the projects, these specific conditions turn into constraints (which, as usual, is a term taken from literature, in this case from OULIPUS, the Workshop for Potential Literature, which has taught us to work with them - personalities like Perec and Queneau).

每个项目都会遇到一系列特定条件。每种情况都有其特殊性。然而，设计是一项持续性的任务。在项目中，这些特定条件转化为约束（这个术语通常来自文学，在这种情况下来自OULIPUS潜在文学工作坊，其中像佩雷克和克诺这样的人物教会了我们如何运用这些约束）。

The work itself, what one is interested in, the most subjective aspect, where you seek curiosity and that sort of thing, is ultimately one of those constraints. We have always presented our work, not as the best and only possible solution, but as one of the multiple variations, which nevertheless seeks a similar degree of complexity to reality.

工作本身，即一个人感兴趣的内容、最主观的方面、寻求好奇心的地方，最终也成为这些约束之一。我们总是将我们的工作呈现为多种可能变体之一，而不是最佳且唯一的解决方案，这些变体仍然追求与现实相似的复杂程度。

They seek out and accept the existing constraints, but not one or two - hundreds - all of them, I would say. Architectural tradition is one of them. Working within limitations or working while being aware of a certain architectural tradition. We would like to present our work within the context of this aspect: variations. A thousand and one projects, almost an ongoing narration of work that passes from one situation to another.

它们寻求并接受现有的约束，不是一两个，而是数百个，我想说是全部。建筑传统就是其中之一。在限制范围内工作，或在意识到某种建筑传统的同时工作。我们希望在这个方面的背景下呈现我们的工作：变体。上千个项目，几乎是一个从一种情况过渡到另一种情况的持续叙事。

However, I would like to point out that these variations are in themselves working material, a material basis that is permanently useful, real, measurable and calibrated for specific conditions. These variations can be translated into plans but not into diagrams. The potential for an abstract materiality in the plans themselves distances them from their diagrammatic value.

然而，我想指出这些变体本身就是工作材料，是一个永久有用的、真实的、可测量的、针对特定条件校准的物质基础。这些变体可以转化为平面图，但不能转化为图表。平面图本身的抽象物质性潜力使它们远离了图表价值。

So it seems to me that diagrams have no abstract value. In order to have an abstract value, there must be a material quality. These plans, or these variations, are constructions from the outset. In other words, the one that is a plan, that uses reality as its constructive and constrictive reference point, which includes the notion of measure, the sense of the specific, etc., is already architecture.

因此在我看来，图表没有抽象价值。要具有抽象价值，就必须有物质品质。这些平面图，或者说这些变体，从一开始就是建构。换句话说，作为平面图的东西，以现实为其建构性和约束性参照点，包含了度量的概念、特定性的感觉等，已经是建筑了。

It is one of the ways we work to construct a thought. Dimensions, the line, the specifics, all construct this basis for work. From that point, the constant transformations and variations are what make the project move forward. Perhaps it would be worthwhile giving these works a certain order and deciding on a type of rhythm. Seeking points that they have in common.

这是我们构建思想的方式之一。尺寸、线条、细节，都构成了这个工作基础。从那时起，持续的转变和变化推动项目向前发展。也许值得给这些作品一定的秩序，决定一种节奏。寻找它们的共同点。

But I would not, however, seek these points in common amongst issues that may apparently be specific to them, such as formal descriptions or through surfaces, folds, shifts, etc., which to my mind are excessively distant definitions that make the projects seem more like caricatures. Some of these taxonomies approach the state of a joke, and the results are of the type, 'The strange case of the floor that became a wall', or 'The incredible floor that became ceiling'.

但是，我不会在那些表面上特定于它们的问题中寻找这些共同点，比如形式描述或通过表面、折叠、位移等，在我看来这些都是过于遥远的定义，使项目更像是漫画。这些分类有些接近于笑话，结果就像"地板变成墙壁的奇怪案例"或"地板变成天花板的不可思议故事"。

This sort of caricature arises when we focus on what we have at hand, when we experiment with describing things... But only because you look at what you have, which is very strange, and you want to describe it. And yet what is out there, what originates our projects, is extremely important. Possibly the first time we played with this idea that the important thing is what is left outside the project was a photo essay with Domi Mora, where we kept the Alicante Eurythmics Centre behind our backs. We were photographing their shadows...

这种漫画式的表现产生于我们专注于手头的东西，当我们尝试描述事物时...但这仅仅是因为你看着你所拥有的，这很奇怪，而你想要描述它。然而外面的东西，产生我们项目的东西，才是极其重要的。可能我们第一次玩这个想法，即项目之外留下的东西才是重要的，是在与多米·莫拉的摄影随笔中，我们把阿利坎特优律体中心留在背后。我们在拍摄它们的影子...

And then, to finish more quickly, I said, 'I am tempted to work with Perec and Queneau alongside, learning from the game, between subjectivity and system, using the same idea as the Potential Workshop, in the irony that you can find in the Exercises in Style. And perhaps going back to some of Foucault's texts to arrange our ideas...'

然后，为了更快地结束，我说："我想与佩雷克和克诺一起工作，从游戏中学习，在主观性和系统之间，使用与潜在工作坊相同的想法，在《风格练习》中你能找到的讽刺中。也许还要回到福柯的一些文本来整理我们的想法..."

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